Religion Randomness
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- hitbyambulance
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Re: Religion Randomness
animal breeders are already attempting to make their perfect master-race lineage... mainly through excessive inbreeding? this is probably the low-end example. however,i think it's safe to say that humanity just is not good with little things like "ethical grasp exceeded by technological reach" and "unintended consequences"
- Isgrimnur
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Re: Religion Randomness
FTFY.hitbyambulance wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 11:46 pm humanity just is not good with little things like "ethics"
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- noxiousdog
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Re: Religion Randomness
That's not addressing the root issue though. If we have the ability to create ideal humans, what is the ethics around choosing to create a human that is not ideal?stessier wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:38 pmThere's a pretty big difference between CRISPR and abortion, though.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 4:16 pmIt's something we are absolutely going to have to deal with going into the future... and to some extent are already.
Not having an abortion is a choice just like having an abortion is. Choosing not to do something is a choice... like not getting a vaccine, or in the future not designing a human.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
- Remus West
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Re: Religion Randomness
I'm not sure about where I stand on that but I do know that in Buck Rodgers there was an episode with a "genetically perfect" woman who was no where near as hot as Erin Grey.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 1:05 pmNot having an abortion is a choice just like having an abortion is. Choosing not to do something is a choice... like not getting a vaccine, or in the future not designing a human.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken
- noxiousdog
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Re: Religion Randomness
Remus West wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 12:28 pmI'm not sure about where I stand on that but I do know that in Buck Rodgers there was an episode with a "genetically perfect" woman who was no where near as hot as Erin Grey.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Sun May 23, 2021 1:05 pmNot having an abortion is a choice just like having an abortion is. Choosing not to do something is a choice... like not getting a vaccine, or in the future not designing a human.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
- hepcat
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Re: Religion Randomness
Come on, man. You can't whip out some Twiki like that without any kind of warning. Bad form!
Lord of His Pants
- Smoove_B
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Re: Religion Randomness
Hey, look at me mixing topics:
Sofa King gross, but they are really hurting for cash, I'm sure.Nearly all Catholics, including those who are unvaccinated, are supposed to return to in-person Masses this weekend as New Jersey’s bishops lift their orders that gave parishioners permission to skip weekly services during the pandemic.
...
Though only 4.3 million people, or about half the state’s population, were fully vaccinated as of Thursday, the Catholic bishops are not giving unvaccinated people a free pass to stay home. They are also not making exceptions for children under 12, who are not eligible for vaccinations yet.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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- Skinypupy
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Re: Religion Randomness
Oh, for fuck's sake.
I actually kinda like Cox (cue "that's what she said!"), but this is just stupid.Amid dangerous drought conditions, we’re inviting all Utahns — regardless of religious affiliation — to join us this weekend in collective and humble prayer for rain.
When darkness veils the world, four Warriors of Light shall come.
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Re: Religion Randomness
Ouch. In there seems to be the assumption that atheists cant make statements about what they feel would be moral? Or am I misreading?Remus West wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 1:33 pmYou begged that question when you posted "someone in his position" regarding a well known atheist making a statement about morality.Grifman wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 1:23 pmHow am I begging the question? I'm no more begging the question than you are by stating that "mortality" does not need a god.noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 12:43 pmYour first question is begging the question. Mortality does not need a god, and therefore atheists can make mortality arguments.Grifman wrote: Of course, I'm not sure how someone in his position can call anything "moral" or "immoral", but there you have it.
Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- hepcat
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Re: Religion Randomness
Using that same justification, you could say just having children is immoral as parents can, and do, sometimes die before they’re grown, or give up children for adoption, thus leaving the state to raise them in many cases.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 pm Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Your scenario isn’t an example of immorality, it’s an example of tragedy.
Last edited by hepcat on Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lord of His Pants
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Re: Religion Randomness
Normal kids can at least be expected to be able to care for themselves. Down's kids? Not so much. They WILL require care, their whole lives.hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:48 amUsing that same justification, you could say just having children is immoral as parents can, and do, sometimes die before they’re grown, or give up children for adoption, thus leaving the state to raise them in many cases.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 pm Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Your scenario isn’t an example of immortality, it’s an example of tragedy.
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- Holman
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Re: Religion Randomness
Ah, yes. The well-known self-sufficiency of children.Drazzil wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:16 pmNormal kids can at least be expected to be able to care for themselves. Down's kids? Not so much. They WILL require care, their whole lives.hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:48 amUsing that same justification, you could say just having children is immoral as parents can, and do, sometimes die before they’re grown, or give up children for adoption, thus leaving the state to raise them in many cases.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 pm Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Your scenario isn’t an example of immortality, it’s an example of tragedy.
[Edited for Godwinizing]
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- hepcat
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Re: Religion Randomness
A parent who chooses to go ahead with the birth of a child even when they know it may have disabilities is NOT an act of immorality. In fact, I would say your obvious belief that children with disabilities should be terminated before birth actually IS immoral.
Lord of His Pants
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Re: Religion Randomness
I would not force anyone to be a parent even though I love kids. It is a hard and often thankless job even in the best circumstances.
"A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on." -Terry Pratchett, The Truth
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
"The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it." -Terry Pratchett, Monstrous Regiment
- Kraken
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Re: Religion Randomness
Yeah the expecting parent(s) and their doctor are already having some hard conversations. They shouldn't need to worry about what I think.hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:25 pm A parent who chooses to go ahead with the birth of a child even when they know it may have disabilities is NOT an act of immorality. In fact, I would say your obvious belief that children with disabilities should be terminated before birth actually IS immoral.
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Re: Religion Randomness
Avoiding the point by nitpicking grammar. Nice.Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:21 pmAh, yes. The well-known self-sufficiency of children.Drazzil wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:16 pmNormal kids can at least be expected to be able to care for themselves. Down's kids? Not so much. They WILL require care, their whole lives.hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:48 amUsing that same justification, you could say just having children is immoral as parents can, and do, sometimes die before they’re grown, or give up children for adoption, thus leaving the state to raise them in many cases.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 pm Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Your scenario isn’t an example of immortality, it’s an example of tragedy.
[Edited for Godwinizing]
Daehawk wrote:Thats Drazzil's chair damnit.
- hepcat
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Re: Religion Randomness
Calling people in that situation immoral was callous, in my opinion. While I understand that it can result in additional hardships beyond those that come with raising children, parents aren't choosing to have children in that situation because they're "immoral".
Lord of His Pants
- Holman
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Re: Religion Randomness
Um, no. The point is that all children need care. Down's children need more, but it's a matter of degree, not kind.Drazzil wrote: ↑Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:09 amAvoiding the point by nitpicking grammar. Nice.Holman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:21 pmAh, yes. The well-known self-sufficiency of children.Drazzil wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:16 pmNormal kids can at least be expected to be able to care for themselves. Down's kids? Not so much. They WILL require care, their whole lives.hepcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:48 amUsing that same justification, you could say just having children is immoral as parents can, and do, sometimes die before they’re grown, or give up children for adoption, thus leaving the state to raise them in many cases.Drazzil wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:39 pm Also I tend to believe myself that bringing someone into the world with downs is immoral. The parents who care for them may die before they do, and then either their siblings would have to take on that enormous burden, or the state would. And the state isn't the best for taking care of people like that right now. Misery all around imo.
Your scenario isn’t an example of immortality, it’s an example of tragedy.
[Edited for Godwinizing]
Where do you draw the line? Is it "immoral" to bring a child into the world with other special needs? Which ones?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- gilraen
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Re: Religion Randomness
To each his own. I wouldn't. Others will.
For example, Iceland has almost no Down Syndrome births...by choice. In the U.S., only about 2/3rds of those pregnancies are terminated (but it's unclear if the statistics count those that didn't do genetic in-vitro testing and would have terminated if found out early in the pregnancy).
I don't think morality applies for the most part, but with the exception of severe untreatable conditions, where the baby will die regardless (whether within hours, days, or months) and in lots of pain. That family isn't choosing the child to be born for the child's sake - they are choosing it for their own sake.
- Smoove_B
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Re: Religion Randomness
As a recovering Catholic (30+ years at this point), I feel comfortable saying that as an organization they should be burned to the ground.
What an absolute disgrace for them to meet and discuss this, all so they can whip devout followers into a donating frenzy at a local level, no doubt.
What an absolute disgrace for them to meet and discuss this, all so they can whip devout followers into a donating frenzy at a local level, no doubt.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
The only thing they agreed to do was draft a statement on the meaning of Communion in the life of the church that would be presented at a future meeting for consideration. If whatever they write is accepted, it won't even make national policy - it will still be up to local bishops to make decisions.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:14 pm As a recovering Catholic (30+ years at this point), I feel comfortable saying that as an organization they should be burned to the ground.
What an absolute disgrace for them to meet and discuss this, all so they can whip devout followers into a donating frenzy at a local level, no doubt.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- Smoove_B
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Re: Religion Randomness
Right, but they're using Biden as a reason to come up with a new statement or policy. To rephrase, they're using the President of the United States as a reason to meet and discuss religious dogma and how sacraments are then going to be offered in the United States.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:17 pm The only thing they agreed to do was draft a statement on the meaning of Communion in the life of the church that would be presented at a future meeting for consideration. If whatever they write is accepted, it won't even make national policy - it will still be up to local bishops to make decisions.
I had relatives during Obama's Presidency tell me he was going to open the doors to "Sharia Law" (whatever that meant at the time), and yet the most persecuted religion in America (insert barfing rolley-eye emoji here) has to now take an official stance because of President Biden.
Its beyond gross.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Isgrimnur
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Re: Religion Randomness
Well, when your whole religion is based on persecution...
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- gilraen
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Re: Religion Randomness
After 200+ years, a good portion of Americans has yet to figure out the concept of "separation of church and state".
Maybe they should ask Vatican for asylum...oh wait, they don't really like the Pope's views either!
Maybe they should ask Vatican for asylum...oh wait, they don't really like the Pope's views either!
- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
Well, it came up during a meeting - it wasn't the sole point of the meeting. And this has been a fairly consistent stance of theirs for all politicians or leaders. I find it understandable that when the highest leader of the land claims to be a member of your organization and is not living according to the principles of the organization, that a restatement of those principles might be in order. They made a point of saying no names will be used.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:32 pmRight, but they're using Biden as a reason to come up with a new statement or policy. To rephrase, they're using the President of the United States as a reason to meet and discuss religious dogma and how sacraments are then going to be offered in the United States.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:17 pm The only thing they agreed to do was draft a statement on the meaning of Communion in the life of the church that would be presented at a future meeting for consideration. If whatever they write is accepted, it won't even make national policy - it will still be up to local bishops to make decisions.
I mean, I don't agree with them, but it's not out of line for them to say they don't agree with what he's doing and explain why it's against their ideals.
If an NRA member became president and then made it a point to ban guns, wouldn't it make sense for the NRA to disavow them?
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
I don't see how that applies here.
Now that is truth! I'm not entirely certain he'd be welcomed if he tried to visit.oh wait, they don't really like the Pope's views either!
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- gilraen
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Re: Religion Randomness
Religious leaders are assuming that they are allowed to affect public policy, not in the least because too many political figures are allowing their religious views to affect public policy.
- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
Of course religious leaders are allowed to affect public policy. Separation of church and state works the other way - the State is not allowed to favor one religion over another. There's nothing preventing religions from trying to get what they want out of the State.
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- gilraen
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Re: Religion Randomness
Well, okay, this is a pretty convoluted point. They can't participate in political campaigns, if they want to keep their tax-exempt status, and getting your candidates in place is the primary way for someone to push long-term political agenda. Yeah, obviously they can flap their mouths all they want, and the "flock" will listen (or quit the church in disgust...YMMV).stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:00 pmOf course religious leaders are allowed to affect public policy. Separation of church and state works the other way - the State is not allowed to favor one religion over another. There's nothing preventing religions from trying to get what they want out of the State.
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Re: Religion Randomness
Just a coincidence, I'm sure. They're meeting because the Catholic church is hurting financially and they need to get members back in seats and donating money. What better way to do that than to go after the President and reaffirm their strong stance on abortion.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:48 pm Well, it came up during a meeting - it wasn't the sole point of the meeting. And this has been a fairly consistent stance of theirs for all politicians or leaders. I find it understandable that when the highest leader of the land claims to be a member of your organization and is not living according to the principles of the organization, that a restatement of those principles might be in order. They made a point of saying no names will be used.
All the stuff that happened under Trump (not a Catholic, I know) and this is the time they feel it's necessary to discuss things and come up with a policy that impacts practice and the delivery of sacraments? I mean, really.I mean, I don't agree with them, but it's not out of line for them to say they don't agree with what he's doing and explain why it's against their ideals.
Sure. But the NRA also meets and disavows anyone opposing them or doing things counter to their mission. Hell, I'm sure I could craft a sentence this afternoon and get myself disavowed by the NRA if I really tried. Joe Biden is a Catholic that just happens to have been elected to the office of the President of the United States of America. He's not the Catholic President of America.If an NRA member became president and then made it a point to ban guns, wouldn't it make sense for the NRA to disavow them?
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- stessier
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Re: Religion Randomness
You're projecting a bit. This is their Spring meeting. I'm pretty sure they meet twice a year. This was a regularly scheduled meeting.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:08 pmJust a coincidence, I'm sure. They're meeting because the Catholic church is hurting financially and they need to get members back in seats and donating money. What better way to do that than to go after the President and reaffirm their strong stance on abortion.stessier wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:48 pm Well, it came up during a meeting - it wasn't the sole point of the meeting. And this has been a fairly consistent stance of theirs for all politicians or leaders. I find it understandable that when the highest leader of the land claims to be a member of your organization and is not living according to the principles of the organization, that a restatement of those principles might be in order. They made a point of saying no names will be used.
You're kidding, right? This has been going on since abortion was legalized. A quick google search from 2000-2016 for denial of eucharist to pro-abortion politicians:All the stuff that happened under Trump (not a Catholic, I know) and this is the time they feel it's necessary to discuss things and come up with a policy that impacts practice and the delivery of sacraments? I mean, really.I mean, I don't agree with them, but it's not out of line for them to say they don't agree with what he's doing and explain why it's against their ideals.
2002
2004
2005
2007
2008
2013
2014
That's just the first page.
He's a very high profile Catholic. How he behaves has the ability to influence how other Catholics think. Why is it unreasonable for them to come out strong and say this set of beliefs is inconsistent with their ideals?Sure. But the NRA also meets and disavows anyone opposing them or doing things counter to their mission. Hell, I'm sure I could craft a sentence this afternoon and get myself disavowed by the NRA if I really tried. Joe Biden is a Catholic that just happens to have been elected to the office of the President of the United States of America. He's not the Catholic President of America.If an NRA member became president and then made it a point to ban guns, wouldn't it make sense for the NRA to disavow them?
I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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- Holman
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Re: Religion Randomness
I'm not sure "Pro-choice Democrats are not welcome in the Catholic church" will fill the seats the way they hope.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:08 pm Just a coincidence, I'm sure. They're meeting because the Catholic church is hurting financially and they need to get members back in seats and donating money. What better way to do that than to go after the President and reaffirm their strong stance on abortion.
Anyway, I would expect the Pope to come out with a statement that mass is not to be withheld for political reasons.
And then, of course, there's the fact that capital punishment, birth control, and divorce are every bit as contrary to Catholic doctrine as abortion. Enforcing these would deny communion to pretty much every Catholic Republican.
Last edited by Holman on Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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- LawBeefaroni
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Re: Religion Randomness
I always thought that fact that there was only one Catholic President prior to Biden was down to the dominance of Protestentism in the US.
But now I'm wondering if it's not the voters but the candidates. Catholic says, "No way I'm taking that job!"
But now I'm wondering if it's not the voters but the candidates. Catholic says, "No way I'm taking that job!"
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- Smoove_B
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Re: Religion Randomness
Possibly. I'm definitely tweaked by family members that are still devout and vocally non-supportive of numerous Catholic elements but continue to attend weekly mass and donate money.
I guess I wasn't clear. I wasn't speaking about abortion as the *only* topic. Instead, the idea that the Catholic church could have at any point between 2016 and 2020 come out swinging for Donald Trump over any number of things (let's pick his stance on immigrants) and they could barely muster an official stance.You're kidding, right? This has been going on since abortion was legalized. A quick google search from 2000-2016 for denial of eucharist to pro-abortion politicians
Joe Biden has been President for ~5 months now and the first thing on their agenda (at the Spring meeting) is to make sure they're gunning for him over abortion. Of all the things they could be doing right now, that's a priority, apparently.
While my sample size is small (limited to family and extended family), there is no logic in how they think. I have family members that are pro-LGBTQ and disgusted at the various abuse scandals, and yet they attend church every week and donate money. My MIL was barred from receiving Communion because of her divorce and yet she still goes to church multiple times a week and participates because "that's my choice".He's a very high profile Catholic. How he behaves has the ability to influence how other Catholics think. Why is it unreasonable for them to come out strong and say this set of beliefs is inconsistent with their ideals?
Again, I fully admit my own (personal) perspective on this is coloring my response. I still think it's gross.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Holman
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Re: Religion Randomness
There have been quite a few Catholics seeking the presidential nomination, but I believe John Kerry is the only one between Kennedy and Biden who actually got it.LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:54 pm I always thought that fact that there was only one Catholic President prior to Biden was down to the dominance of Protestentism in the US.
But now I'm wondering if it's not the voters but the candidates. Catholic says, "No way I'm taking that job!"
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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Re: Religion Randomness
Same to some extent but it was personally seeing how people were treated and driven away by the church. Also, it strikes me this is a great way to show young people that the Catholic church in the US is driven by American Conservative politics. It's just unnecessary.