What is cancel culture?
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- dbt1949
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What is cancel culture?
I have a vague notion I suppose but it is rather confusing to me.
Ye Olde Farte
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Re: What is cancel culture?
It seems to be what had always been called "political correctness", but in my experience, usage has been inconsistent. It could refer to some show or movie being "cancelled" (edited or made unavailable or merely having some content warning added) because they contain offensive material. Or offensive statues that were taken down or were moved to museums. Or it could be someone losing their job because of something they're accused of doing (eg, the metoo movement). Or losing their job because of an unpopular/offensive opinion (usually that they stated very publicly).
- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Like anything else, it is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's crowdsourced justice. And like any gathering, it can either be a protest or a mob.
It can be good because it can result in real change in areas that normally were impenetrable by any other means. Systemic racism and misogyny are being exposed, whereas in the past they were largely overlooked because of the power structures in place. Look at the Me Too movement and BLM. Both were founded on real issues. Issues that were considered untouchable until recently.
It can be bad because it has been weaponized by some to enact public executions of people they don't like/disagree with/made a well meaning mistake. If someone says something inadvertently racist or sexist and could benefit from someone just explaining why it is so, they're now punished to a degree that should be reserved for truly unrepentant racist or sexist people. Satire may very well be impossible in the future if folks don't stop to think before they condemn.
It's also not just a left leaning, liberal phenomenon. The right loves to toss out the word "woke" to belittle those who participate in cancel culture...but they hypocritically overlook their own involvement in the very same thing. You need only look back to a few years ago and the right's screaming and gnashing of teeth, resulting in calls for firing/imprisoning those who joined Kaepernick in kneeling during the anthem for examples of that.
It can be good because it can result in real change in areas that normally were impenetrable by any other means. Systemic racism and misogyny are being exposed, whereas in the past they were largely overlooked because of the power structures in place. Look at the Me Too movement and BLM. Both were founded on real issues. Issues that were considered untouchable until recently.
It can be bad because it has been weaponized by some to enact public executions of people they don't like/disagree with/made a well meaning mistake. If someone says something inadvertently racist or sexist and could benefit from someone just explaining why it is so, they're now punished to a degree that should be reserved for truly unrepentant racist or sexist people. Satire may very well be impossible in the future if folks don't stop to think before they condemn.
It's also not just a left leaning, liberal phenomenon. The right loves to toss out the word "woke" to belittle those who participate in cancel culture...but they hypocritically overlook their own involvement in the very same thing. You need only look back to a few years ago and the right's screaming and gnashing of teeth, resulting in calls for firing/imprisoning those who joined Kaepernick in kneeling during the anthem for examples of that.
Last edited by hepcat on Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Smoove_B
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I think LeVar Burton summarized it great here:
Burton said that he thinks the term "cancel-culture" is misnamed. "I think we have a consequence culture. And that consequences are finally encompassing everybody in the society, whereas they haven't been ever in this country."
He argued that cancel culture is actually good because it helps hold people accountable, which helps shift and progress culture forward.
"And I think it has everything to do with a new awareness by people who were simply unaware of the real nature of life in this country for people who have been othered since this nation began," he told McCain.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
- Blackhawk
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Re: What is cancel culture?
dbt, the simple answer is that if you cancel a person or company, you stop supporting that person. It's effectively a boycott of that person and their works. So if an actor shows as racist, they are 'canceled', their fans abandon them, and their roles are either recast or ended, as there is enough energy behind the movement to effectively tank the ratings.
And I agree with LeVar.
The only problem is that, like any form of consequence, it has to be applied with common sense and compassion.
Some people mistake using it for justice (which is good) with using it for vengeance (which is not.) People who were awful when they were 20 and then realized their mistakes and became good people for decades have had their careers cut short because of a mistake made when they were kids.
Some people mistake accusation for action, and people have their lives destroyed because they were accused of something by somebody who wanted to get back at them. But once the accusation is made, the court of public opinion weighs in. Books are boycotted, roles are recast, performances are canceled, all before anyone bothers to check whether the wrong ever actually occurred.
And some people don't take societal change into account. This is a tricky one, but 60 years ago - or 200 years ago - some things that we consider despicable now weren't recognized as being harmful, and many of the people who held certain beliefs or said certain things would never have done so had they had the benefits of modern understanding. Or maybe they would have. Who knows? But when the schools teach (for example) that certain people are inferior, and every person of that type that the average person encounters is poor and uneducated (from a modern view we know this is inflicted on those people, not their nature), and no dissenting opinion is ever voiced where most people will hear it, is a person who holds that view despicable, or ignorant? It's complicated.
The whole thing is complicated. There need to be consequences, but addressing injustice with injustice isn't justice. Just because it goes to 11 doesn't mean it doesn't have a 1 through 10. Not every case is like Mel Gibson, where the wrong is clear. Some are like Chris Hardwick, where what really happened is confusing and obscured.
And I agree with LeVar.
The only problem is that, like any form of consequence, it has to be applied with common sense and compassion.
Some people mistake using it for justice (which is good) with using it for vengeance (which is not.) People who were awful when they were 20 and then realized their mistakes and became good people for decades have had their careers cut short because of a mistake made when they were kids.
Some people mistake accusation for action, and people have their lives destroyed because they were accused of something by somebody who wanted to get back at them. But once the accusation is made, the court of public opinion weighs in. Books are boycotted, roles are recast, performances are canceled, all before anyone bothers to check whether the wrong ever actually occurred.
And some people don't take societal change into account. This is a tricky one, but 60 years ago - or 200 years ago - some things that we consider despicable now weren't recognized as being harmful, and many of the people who held certain beliefs or said certain things would never have done so had they had the benefits of modern understanding. Or maybe they would have. Who knows? But when the schools teach (for example) that certain people are inferior, and every person of that type that the average person encounters is poor and uneducated (from a modern view we know this is inflicted on those people, not their nature), and no dissenting opinion is ever voiced where most people will hear it, is a person who holds that view despicable, or ignorant? It's complicated.
The whole thing is complicated. There need to be consequences, but addressing injustice with injustice isn't justice. Just because it goes to 11 doesn't mean it doesn't have a 1 through 10. Not every case is like Mel Gibson, where the wrong is clear. Some are like Chris Hardwick, where what really happened is confusing and obscured.
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- Sudy
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Re: What is cancel culture?
All of the above, but you really have to dig in and do your own research, because you can't boil a concept or trend down to two words. And like anything contentious, it's often distorted and viciously misrepresented by bad actors.
In essence I think it's the propagation of real consequences through social means, especially social media. In ways, this has given many the courage to speak up who otherwise wouldn't have. But it can also lead to a snowballing by the poorly informed, or worse--malicious tampering.
Some would have you believe it's the outright "cancelation" or burying (or censoring) of an objectionable thing or person, sometimes unfairly. I think that's an oversimplification of the broader trend, but is sometimes a legitimate concern. E.g. media personalities being fired from their jobs before a full investigation can be performed into what they're being accused of, presumably because their company doesn't want to be associated with the potential wrongdoing for financial/political reasons. (E.g. James Gunn's initial firing from Marvel.)
In summary, I think it's a dumb and politically loaded terminology for an important cultural movement that, like most movements, is sometimes manipulated or exploited. And without being on the inside and knowing all the factors at play, it can often be difficult to be certain. Most of the time, where there's smoke there's fire. But sometimes there's a hippie burning incense as the overzealous young fascist fire marshal walks past the window.
In essence I think it's the propagation of real consequences through social means, especially social media. In ways, this has given many the courage to speak up who otherwise wouldn't have. But it can also lead to a snowballing by the poorly informed, or worse--malicious tampering.
Some would have you believe it's the outright "cancelation" or burying (or censoring) of an objectionable thing or person, sometimes unfairly. I think that's an oversimplification of the broader trend, but is sometimes a legitimate concern. E.g. media personalities being fired from their jobs before a full investigation can be performed into what they're being accused of, presumably because their company doesn't want to be associated with the potential wrongdoing for financial/political reasons. (E.g. James Gunn's initial firing from Marvel.)
In summary, I think it's a dumb and politically loaded terminology for an important cultural movement that, like most movements, is sometimes manipulated or exploited. And without being on the inside and knowing all the factors at play, it can often be difficult to be certain. Most of the time, where there's smoke there's fire. But sometimes there's a hippie burning incense as the overzealous young fascist fire marshal walks past the window.
I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
- Unagi
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Re: What is cancel culture?
It means: consequences
- Unagi
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Bingo. Yes, this.Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:48 am I think LeVar Burton summarized it great here:Burton said that he thinks the term "cancel-culture" is misnamed. "I think we have a consequence culture. And that consequences are finally encompassing everybody in the society, whereas they haven't been ever in this country."
He argued that cancel culture is actually good because it helps hold people accountable, which helps shift and progress culture forward.
"And I think it has everything to do with a new awareness by people who were simply unaware of the real nature of life in this country for people who have been othered since this nation began," he told McCain.
- dbt1949
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Okay. I think I understand now.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Ye Olde Farte
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Well this isn't about Fox Network or Sy-Fy Network so Im out.
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- Isgrimnur
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Cancel Culture, a light-hearted comedy about the struggles of a modern family, coming this fall to ABC.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- Unagi
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- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
They also forgot to add a Lithuanian character, which shows a lot of cultural insensitivity on their part.
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- YellowKing
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I'd agree with Levar if it was applied fairly, but it's all-too often abused. There are some things that are unforgivable - sexual assaults, etc. But ruining someone's career because they used a racial slur when they were a teen is misguided, uncompassionate, and cruel. It assumes that human beings can't change, which is a pessimistic and cynical view of the world that I don't believe in.
Yes, negative actions require consequences. But if we don't give a person a chance to learn from their mistakes, what are we really accomplishing?
Yes, negative actions require consequences. But if we don't give a person a chance to learn from their mistakes, what are we really accomplishing?
- Kraken
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I think of it as today's version of shunning, which was a big deal when societies were small.
- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
social media has made our society small in that sense.
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- Unagi
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Re: What is cancel culture?
But is that a thing?YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:30 pm But ruining someone's career because they used a racial slur when they were a teen is misguided, uncompassionate, and cruel.
Where is this happening and who is doing the cancelling?
I mean, for example, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a company to fire a salesman, if that salesman was somehow now revealed (via a tweet, or being caught in someone else's video yelling horrible things to another person, etc...) to have gone against that company's culture, and they are repelled by what they read or saw... for example.
Looking back 20 years and finding a single event that can be attributed to youthful stupidity rarely sinks a person's career. Repeated events? Sure.
- gilraen
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Yes.Unagi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:26 pmBut is that a thing?YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:30 pm But ruining someone's career because they used a racial slur when they were a teen is misguided, uncompassionate, and cruel.
Where is this happening and who is doing the cancelling?
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Agree, but with the reminder that the Right's war on cancel culture doesn't mean "people should have a chance to learn from their mistakes" but "people should get to be bigots."YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:30 pm Yes, negative actions require consequences. But if we don't give a person a chance to learn from their mistakes, what are we really accomplishing?
Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
- Unagi
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I think those are the extreme outliers (and interesting examples).gilraen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pmYes.Unagi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:26 pmBut is that a thing?YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:30 pm But ruining someone's career because they used a racial slur when they were a teen is misguided, uncompassionate, and cruel.
Where is this happening and who is doing the cancelling?
But as Holman said much better, mostly ‘cancel culture’ is being used as a defense/counter attack when racists and bigots are called out for their ‘very current’ and often disgusting behavior, and someone, like their employer, wants to severe any relationship with them.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
And not sure why it seems like I should point this out.gilraen wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pmYes.Unagi wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:26 pmBut is that a thing?YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:30 pm But ruining someone's career because they used a racial slur when they were a teen is misguided, uncompassionate, and cruel.
Where is this happening and who is doing the cancelling?
(Cause it sounds like total bullshit that the young woman in your link was let go)
But to be perfectly clear, she was in her late 20s being held accountable for something she did at 19.
Not that it makes it entirely ok, but that certainly isn’t the same as holding a 40 year old accountable for using a racial slur when they were 15 years old.
I think the time past, and the lack of repeated behavior is enough to say this individual should be judged on more recent behavior.
I mean, 19 is certainly still a teenager.
- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
A search of all our posting histories reveals growth, I believe.
But Lithuania, Peoria , and Shriners are still fair game.
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- Isgrimnur
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Re: What is cancel culture?
When did Milwaukee get removed?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
It has New Glarus brewery so I gave it a pass.
Edit: whoops, it's actually not in Milwaukee. So it's back on the list.
Edit: whoops, it's actually not in Milwaukee. So it's back on the list.
Last edited by hepcat on Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I would like to politely suggest that Lithuania be left out. (You may be unaware that there is a Lithuanian member of the forum.)hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:05 pmA search of all our posting histories reveals growth, I believe.
But Lithuania, Peoria , and Shriners are still fair game.
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- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I'm sure we have more than one with some Lithuanian in them.
I'm also sure I didn't write anything that was actually even remotely insulting to anyone...regardless of their nationality.
I'm also sure I didn't write anything that was actually even remotely insulting to anyone...regardless of their nationality.
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- TheMix
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Perhaps. Though I'm talking about 'born there and lived there until about 15 years old'.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
Oh, I know. And I know you are just joking. I was just pointing it out.
Like those Albanians.... er... Norwegians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQN1q44zZZw
Like those Albanians.... er... Norwegians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQN1q44zZZw
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- hepcat
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Re: What is cancel culture?
The point of choosing groups like Lithuanians, people from Peoria or Vegans* is because they're not traditionally the brunt of derisive jokes. That's kind of the joke. It's like trying to portray Canadians as ultra violent racists. It's not a thing, so it's absurd.
*I'm open to derisive jokes about Vegans, on second thought.
*I'm open to derisive jokes about Vegans, on second thought.
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- YellowKing
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Re: What is cancel culture?
My brother's been a vegan for almost 30 years, so I find them unfunny and offensive.hepcat wrote:*I'm open to derisive jokes about Vegans, on second thought.
Vegans that is.....the derisive jokes are hilarious.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
How many times an hour does he bring up the fact that he's Vegan?
....sorry, couldn't resist.
....sorry, couldn't resist.
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- Sudy
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I saw a commercial on late night TV. It said, "Forget everything you know about slipcovers." So I did. And it was a load off my mind. Then the commercial tried to sell me slipcovers, and I didn't know what the hell they were. -- Mitch Hedberg
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Re: What is cancel culture?
But have you ever met a nice South African?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
My issue with the right freaking out about cancel culture is that they have just renamed something that has always been there, and that they generally approve of. A teenage girl getting pregnant out of wedlock would have been shunned until relatively recently, and is still a scandal in some circles. Coming out as gay or an atheist will still get you thrown out of many families and get you thrown out of many private schools. It's just and reasonable consequences if it's shunning you approve of, and cancel culture to be hysterical about if you don't.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I thought it had something to do with Firefly.
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- YellowKing
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Re: What is cancel culture?
I guess I'm not really looking at it as a right-wing boogeyman or in any political context, but as a by-product of social media. To me, cancel "culture" is the ability for social media to make people judge, jury, and executioner for any perceived slight. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not.
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Re: What is cancel culture?
That's where I see cancel culture being a thing. It is a sort of corollary to doxxing for my money. The mob using the its ability to organize across the electronic frontier to collectively cancel an identity for its actions or opinions, making others guilty by association for not getting in line.YellowKing wrote: ↑Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:06 am I guess I'm not really looking at it as a right-wing boogeyman or in any political context, but as a by-product of social media. To me, cancel "culture" is the ability for social media to make people judge, jury, and executioner for any perceived slight. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not.
It is most definitely not the province of the left. The first time I remember it being a thing was with D&D as a child and then it was PMRC and the Fox network (ironically) as a teen ager.
For me, cancel culture really began here even if I was aware of these sorts since being young, including the constant attempts ban books and movies and music during my public school years...
https://apnews.com/article/855c0e7593de ... 6a17b44476