Disappearing Threads

[Gumps]

Just wanted to raise the flag that over the last couple of days, the OOBL forums have lost a few threads. I am aware of at least two threads as they were formerly stickied (2013 Off-Season Schedule and File Locations). I am posting this hear as it seems our forums are currently moderatorless and this seemed the best way to get someone's attention.

[Gedd]

Well, best I can say is that I did a search through the db and didn't find any threads with those titles (except for the new file locations thread, naturally).

I'm not sure what would cause those threads to be deleted unless someone else did it (and only mods/admins have those powers). If I get a minute, I'll take a look through the support forums to see if there's any mention of disappearing threads.

[Rip]

I saw the thread and have used the links or had. Being one of the people with the ability to delete threads, I have not done so.

I will investigate if time allows.

[dbt1949]

You know,while playing HOI2 yesterday some of my strategic bombers just disappeared too.Coincidence?Maybe.........

[CeeKay]

The threads have been reappearing with reports of

[Crowley]

Yeah, my 60k post just dissapeared.

Though rife with probable NSFW material, CoC (har) violations and general uselessness, I dont believe simply erasing a topic will in any way improve the board. Nor does it speak well (if deleted by a mod) about the management's way of handling things, simply making a few snips instead of addressing the real problem.

Mods, ban me, warn me, manhandle me but dont just erase unpopular opinions or pictures as if they never existed. This of course assumes a mod did delete the thread (and godhugh was online at the time), and if im mistaken then I apologize fully and compliment them on a job so far well done.

[Gedd]

Gumps and Crowley, did you have the thread(s) bookmarked or in your cache at all? If so, can you post the URL for it?

[Asharak]

The universe is trying to tell you something, Crowley...

- Ash

[MHS]

Crowley, as one of the mods in EbG, I can assure you that I didn't delete your thread. I think you would know my style well enough by know to know that I always try to PM first, and try to include a reason why it's objectionable material. I didn't see anything in that thread that would have generated a PM from me, much less deletion without warning. Although it was only 10-12 posts long when I last read it... did it get out of hand from there?

[CeeKay]

Gumps and Crowley, did you have the thread(s) bookmarked or in your cache at all? If so, can you post the URL for it?

Actually I have the link to Crowley's 60K post from my browsers history tab:

http://www.octopusoverlords.com/phpBB2/ ... p?p=116523

[Rip]

The thread was deleted. More information will be forthcoming.

[Crowley]

The thread was deleted. More information will be forthcoming.

Oh hey, didnt realize I stepped into a sitcom. Why not resolve this, say, the hour it happened and not draw it out?

[The Meal]

The thread was deleted. More information will be forthcoming.

Oh hey, didnt realize I stepped into a sitcom. Why not resolve this, say, the hour it happened and not draw it out?

Because Rip didn't make the deletion and doesn't have a mind meld with the person who did. (Nor do I, FWIW.) At some point someone will be by to give an explanation.

~Neal

[The Mad Hatter]

The thread was deleted. More information will be forthcoming.

Oh hey, didnt realize I stepped into a sitcom. Why not resolve this, say, the hour it happened and not draw it out?

Because Rip didn't make the deletion and doesn't have a mind meld with the person who did. (Nor do I, FWIW.)

~Neal

But I thought OO was run by a hive mind!

[godhugh]

I deleted the thread.

I deleted it because it was sick and by the time I deleted it there were at least 2 pictures that violated the CoC. No pruning of various shots would make the thread safe so I nuked the whole thing.

No, I didn't send you notice that I was doing. No, I didn't lock it and provide an explanation. And no, that's not the way I usually do things. It's just the way I did them last night.

So...there ya go.

[Crowley]

I deleted the thread.

I deleted it because it was sick and by the time I deleted it there were at least 2 pictures that violated the CoC. No pruning of various shots would make the thread safe so I nuked the whole thing.

No, I didn't send you notice that I was doing. No, I didn't lock it and provide an explanation. And no, that's not the way I usually do things. It's just the way I did them last night.

So...there ya go.

So let me get this strait. You erased my thread because you considered it icky and a small portion of it violated a non-existant set of rules?

If the consensus of the community absolutly abhored it then I would understand. If all the mods were part of this then I would also understand. But what Im seeing here is a blatent misuse of power to enforce "good taste". All it was was a simple party thread, with a few good explosions mixed with some humorious pictures and some alien "risque" art. Nothing that'd even border on the lines of the typical Cuthbert thread.

But hey, whatever it takes to protect the community

[godhugh]

I deleted the thread.

I deleted it because it was sick and by the time I deleted it there were at least 2 pictures that violated the CoC. No pruning of various shots would make the thread safe so I nuked the whole thing.

No, I didn't send you notice that I was doing. No, I didn't lock it and provide an explanation. And no, that's not the way I usually do things. It's just the way I did them last night.

So...there ya go.

So let me get this strait. You erased my thread because you considered it icky and a small portion of it violated a non-existant set of rules?

If the consensus of the community absolutly abhored it then I would understand. If all the mods were part of this then I would also understand. But what Im seeing here is a blatent misuse of power to enforce "good taste". All it was was a simple party thread, with a few good explosions mixed with some humorious pictures and some alien "risque" art. Nothing that'd even border on the lines of the typical Cuthbert thread.

But hey, whatever it takes to protect the community

Did you even look at the thread before it was deleted?

When pictures of pornography, such as a picture of a black man and a huge white woman having sex, start getting posted then it's gone waaay beyond "a simple party thread". In addition, if you read some of the responses everyone but CeeKay seemed to be absolutely disgusted by it.

I will grant you one thing, all the mods weren't a part of it. It was my call and I handled it differently then normal for sure. I don't believe it was a misuse of power since, either way, that thread was going to come to an end right then and there.

[Crowley]

When pictures of pornography, such as a picture of a black man and a huge white woman having sex, start getting posted then it's gone waaay beyond "a simple party thread". In addition, if you read some of the responses everyone but CeeKay seemed to be absolutely disgusted by it.

I will grant you one thing, all the mods weren't a part of it. It was my call and I handled it differently then normal for sure. I don't believe it was a misuse of power since, either way, that thread was going to come to an end right then and there.

I can accept that pornography (though to be fair you couldnt see the naughty bits) crosses some lines in good posting etiquette. Even as lead freak on OO even I dont want to see that mess when frequenting here. There should be limits to what can and can't be posted here image-wise, and penalties should be in order for those who break these (common sense) rules. Image (and thread if nessessary) deletions are fair in my eyes in this.

However this point because null and void when you consider that it was Ceekay, not me, that posted that picture. So why, exactly, was my thread erased for someone elses rule-breaking?

[Napoleon]

While I find Crowley unusually annoying most of the time, he does have a point. Time for a CoC sirs!

[Asharak]

Oh yay, another crisis.

I deleted it because it was sick and by the time I deleted it there were at least 2 pictures that violated the CoC. No pruning of various shots would make the thread safe so I nuked the whole thing.

Since I never took a detailed look at the thread, I won't comment as to whether or not it could have been "repaired".

But I do want to ask this: how is there justification for deleting a thread based on the CoC at this point? No one here has had access to a CoC - whether the new OO one or the old GG one - in over four months. We're supposed to psychically remember what the GG CoC said at this point? And what about any people that joined this site without any prior connection to GG (I'm sure there must be a few, by now)? How are they supposed to know what rules to follow?

My point is that I think, if these rules are going to be enforced, that someone needs to post them - right now. Old rules, new rules, I don't care, but it's ludicrous that we're four months into this site and a team of at least 12 people haven't been able to a post a single document (that would be, in total, less than a page) outlining what is and is not permissable.

No, I didn't send you notice that I was doing. No, I didn't lock it and provide an explanation. And no, that's not the way I usually do things. It's just the way I did them last night.

So... is this the way you're likely going to continue doing things? If not, then that's tantamount to an admission of making a mistake, in which case I would think perhaps a little more is owed to Crowley, et al, by way of an apology than just a rather breezy "So...there ya go".

If, on the other hand, this is the way you're going to continue doing things, then I think you and the rest of the Mods need to have a long talk about your interpretation of the site's general moderation principles, because your actions last night definitely don't seem to jive with the impression I (and, I think, the rest of the community) have about how things are generally done around here. Or, I could be totally wrong about the notion that we prefer 'light touch' moderation around here, with plenty of warnings and all that jazz. Feel free to correct me on that.

FWIW, I'll say again that I never really saw the thread - I tend not to load anything that my 56K connection finds unpleasant - so my reaction to this may be based on a false impression. Maybe it truly was so horrible it had to be deleted instantly. But that's a pretty high standard: we let mudslinging in R&P threads go for quite a while before it's stopped, and even then it's usually only locked, not deleted. I know Crowley's a bizarre individual (;)) but it seems to stetch credibility that he'd post something so beyond the pail as to warrant this - and, unfortunately, godhugh's managed to delete all the evidence that could validate his actions.

Regardless of how horrible it was, however, I think the bare minimum offence that has been committed here is that no one - not even the topic starter - was informed of the decision and action. That should be, quite simply, absolutely mandatory in a situation like this. We've been over the issues with deleting threads dozens of times in the past (on GG), so I'm going to assume we're all clear that deleting a thread is a pretty serious thing. To do so without even the common courtesy to inform the original poster of what's happening seems, well, beneath us. A one line PM to Crowley that read "I'm sorry, but your thread was getting out of hand so I had to delete it" would have sufficed.

Even setting aside my other concerns (about the availability of the rules, about the general necessity of deleting threads as opposed to locking them, about taking any action this drastic without even attempting more moderate measures, and about the involved Moderator's seeming lack of contrition about what appears to be a pretty clear violation of the spirit of this site's moderation), that last takes the cake for me: I am, frankly, very concerned that simply informing the affected party of what had happened was deemed to be too much effort.

- Ash

[godhugh]

My point is that I think, if these rules are going to be enforced, that someone needs to post them - right now. Old rules, new rules, I don't care, but it's ludicrous that we're four months into this site and a team of at least 12 people haven't been able to a post a single document (that would be, in total, less than a page) outlining what is and is not permissable.

I agree.

So... is this the way you're likely going to continue doing things? If not, then that's tantamount to an admission of making a mistake, in which case I would think perhaps a little more is owed to Crowley, et al, by way of an apology than just a rather breezy "So...there ya go".

No, it's not the way I'm going to keep doing things.

All in all, I think you're making this into a much bigger deal then it is. It was 12:15am last night, I was exhausted, and I was fed up with the stuff in that thread (and it did violate the CoC). So, I deleted it and went to bed.

I'm not sorry about it. I don't feel bad about it. Could I have handled it better? Sure, one can always do something better. If you want to call that admitting a mistake, then sure, I made a mistake.

I would just caution everyone on making assumptions about the site's policies because of this. This was my choice, on my own and is not indicative of any change in policy or anything else of the sort. If you want to be pissed about, be pissed at me.

[Peacedog]

how is there justification for deleting a thread based on the CoC at this point?

Speaking generally - because we've always reserved the right to do what we think is necessary when the time comes. In part, this is because no rules list could ever adequately cover the variety of situations we have to deal with, without becoming an incomprehensible mess. Also, because of rules lawyers - we get forced to reserve the right to act when we think it is "right"; we can't possibly justify everything to everyone and an attempt to do so would be a waste of time and sanity.

It will always be acceptable for us to do something for no reason whatsoever. Of course, we don't do things for no reason whatsoever, and we've never backed down from explaining something. It is what it is, though.

No one here has had access to a CoC - whether the new OO one or the old GG one - in over four months. We're supposed to psychically remember what the GG CoC said at this point? And what about any people that joined this site without any prior connection to GG (I'm sure there must be a few, by now)? How are they supposed to know what rules to follow?

You're supposed to remember it the way you remember everything else. If someone is new, they can always ask. If a situation arises with a new person, we always explain things to them (the presence of the CoC is immaterial to this), and we tend to be pretty friendly in doing that.

New people will learn the rules they way new people always learn the rules - interaction and observation. Some will read the CoC, and I thank my maker for them late at night, when my head hits the pillow. Most people won't until we point it out to them (usually due to an infraction), and even then most people probably still won't read it. There isn't a single situation where a new person did something that wasn't a gross breach of netiquette (like spaming advertisements) and it played a part in costing them forum access.

Old rules, new rules, I don't care, but it's ludicrous that we're four months into this site and a team of at least 12 people haven't been able to a post a single document (that would be, in total, less than a page) outlining what is and is not permissable.

Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as coming up with a list of rules.

That said, the CoC will be posted very soon. Probably tomorrow. Please try to contain your excitement when it is (if you can't, that's ok too).

[Crowley]

No, it's not the way I'm going to keep doing things.

Whew, good to know my thread was the victim of an sporadic bout of moderating.

All in all, I think you're making this into a much bigger deal then it is. It was 12:15am last night, I was exhausted, and I was fed up with the stuff in that thread (and it did violate the CoC). So, I deleted it and went to bed.

That first sentence there really offsets the rest of the paragraph. Perhaps you were going for something gained you some reason as to your actions. Because what follows actually hampers your backings for doing so. Being tired, pist and ready for bed isnt exactly the best state to be welding the delete stick.

I'm not sorry about it. I don't feel bad about it. Could I have handled it better? Sure, one can always do something better. If you want to call that admitting a mistake, then sure, I made a mistake.

I would just caution everyone on making assumptions about the site's policies because of this. This was my choice, on my own and is not indicative of any change in policy or anything else of the sort. If you want to be pissed about, be pissed at me.

As a moderator, a "respected and trusted person given the duties of keeping community civility" guy, I'd like to think that any beef concerning you would also be aimed at the board in general given the close attatchment (in my mind atleast). Consistency is what Im looking for in any governing force, and statements like these really put a kink in your ability and responsibility to you power given to you. Its like different judges handing out different sentences for the exact same crime. Its unavoidable, but nothing to be content in.

The pictures in "violation" to the CoC I didnt memorize verbatim are here, here, and here NSFW as usual. These rest were of burning trees, explosions and a baby looking out of a box.

edit: I forgot who modded R&P, and how this steaming pile didnt even get the delete stick.

[CeeKay]

I'd like to apologize to Crowley for getting his thread nuked. Occasionally I post images that go over over the line and usually they are changed to a link or edited with a reason give, but the whole thread isn't nuked. But I'm not a mod, they get to make the choices around here, and the mods so far have done a great job keeping this place, err... great.

That being said, perhaps moderators for each forum should decide on a uniform way to handle situations, or maybe y'all can post the CoC which we are all waiting on with baited breath (btw.... someone needs to invest in some mouthwash ).

[ImLawBoy]

edit: I forgot who modded R&P, and how this steaming pile didnt even get the delete stick.

Images are handled differently from text. That text popping up on screen isn't likely to get someone fired (unless a person's boss is speed reading over the shoulder), but a questionable image is likely to get someone disciplined if the wrong person happens to catch a glimpse.

[The Mad Hatter]

Do we really need a formal CoC to know what's appropriate, though? It reminds me of the newsgroup FAQs that some people were always obsessed about, but which I always found completely pointless. I don't need to "read the FAQ" to know how to post, thank you very much, and neither should anyone else.

[MHS]

That being said, perhaps moderators for each forum should decide on a uniform way to handle situations, or maybe y'all can post the CoC which we are all waiting on with baited breath (btw.... someone needs to invest in some mouthwash ).

But that's just it... there really can't be a uniform way to handle every situation when you have individuals as mods.... just as there can't be a uniform way to adhere to those rules for every member here, because you are individuals. For some people, knowing the CoC by heart will never be an issue, because they wouldn't think of posting anything that would offend anyone... whether it was the letter of the law or not. For other people, it's amusing to post the things that are kind of "out there", whether for reaction, or just to see how close they can come to the line, or whatever. The point is, we grant people leeway. We don't smack you down the second you post something questionable. The individuality of the boards is part of what makes them as good as they are. Could you grant us some of that same benefit of the doubt? In *my* opinion, modding that thread wasn't handled as well as it could have been, and as a moderator and therefore somewhat of a voice, I apologize for that. But I think you have to look at godhugh's motives, which were in no way vindictive. He was simply trying to make a decision while he was tired. Everyone here is human, and we will all of us make mistakes sometimes. Members occasionally will by posting something that crosses the line... mods will by occasionally jumping too fast or too hard on something, I've done it myself. I'm in no way trying to shrug it off and say, hey it was no big deal. It was. We made a mistake. We'll learn from it.

As far as the CoC... while I agree that it's frustrating that we still haven't got one posted yet, I disagree that it gives anyone the right to cry foul if their posts get tagged as violating it. It has been said often enough that we're running on the old GG CoC until we get ours up, and that if you're in doubt, you have plenty of options for checking with someone to see if it's kosher or not.

[Peacedog]

Do we really need a formal CoC to know what's appropriate, though? It reminds me of the newsgroup FAQs that some people were always obsessed about, but which I always found completely pointless. I don't need to "read the FAQ" to know how to post, thank you very much, and neither should anyone else.

There are pitfalls to both approaches. We obviously took a subset of the "post it" approach where we didn't want to post too many specifics (though the new CoC has more in it than the old one), except where necessary.

People do like to complain some times that without rules posted things are unfair. It's certainly an issue with merit, but then the CoC isn't like a constitution - it doesn't put forth areas that restrict us[staff] in dealing with the forum populace. Rather, it should be viewed as a handy pocket guide to using the forums, and mostly it's just "things you[populace] should avoid so we[staff] can keep out of each others hair".

Some of it is common sense. Some of it is the kind of stuff that really needs to be on display somewhere, even if it most people don't read it. It isn't all "how to post" guidelines, of course. Some of it is the result of us making a common sense rule but the rule needing to evolve over time. I don't know if that evolution is a good thing (I think it varies from specific circumstance to specific circumstance). Some of it did come into being because of rules lawyering - and in hindsight I think some of that maybe should have been handled differently.

Anyway, it will be posted tomorrow and then we'll take feedback.

[Napoleon]

I somewhat agree with the apparent sentiment of the mods that having a CoC that encompasses all situations will be hard. I also agree with Ash that in 4 months, you guys should at least have something ready that somewhat resembles a CoC.

The bigger point here however is that godhugh handled in a way that the populace could not expect. In the past, NSFW images would be changed into a link. Gross NSFW images would be deleted. Inappropriate threads would be locked. And please help me out here, because I think no thread was ever really deleted. (Apart from maybe an advertisement spam thread).
That's what Crowley could have expected. Instead, godhugh deletes the thread without even providing an explanation ANYWHERE, and when he's called out on it, he's not even apologetic. He displays an attitude that basically amounts to "shut up, and take it, missy"

THAT's the important bit, imho. Ash already pointed that out, but apparently that went lost in the CoC discussion which followed his post. godhugh, that was pretty damn poor moderating, and the fact that you can't even apologize for it or even ACKNOWLEDGE it is pretty lousy of you.

[naednek]

well said Ash, and Nap.

[dbt1949]

[Vagabond]

It will always be acceptable for us to do something for no reason whatsoever. Of course, we don't do things for no reason whatsoever, and we've never backed down from explaining something. It is what it is, though.

Well, peacedog sums up his moderating style. No surprise there. If you can do whatever you want, you have no rules. There has never been a board in the history of the world that was ruined and or even harmed by a post or a thread. Only the pathetic manipulations of the moderators have that kind of power. Particularly when you have somebody like Peacedog who has proven for years now, he doesn't have any intention of trying to moderate in any proper way. I still don't understand why he can't get a different job, perhaps he is equally inept at everything. You want us to abide by standards you yourself aren't willing to abide by.

By your actions you destroy that which you proclaim to be protecting. The only thing worse than locking threads for not liking the content personally, or ban threats is arbitrarily yanking threads or posts with no explaination. This will immediately cause me and I promise you many others to go elsewhere.

[Rincewind]

Vagabond strikes again!! Enjoy him OOers!

[Vagabond]

Vagabond strikes again!! Enjoy him OOers!

Yeah, I suck and you are blatantly proud of your 80 IQ

[Vagabond]

Peacedog the worst moderator on the planet earth has reared his ugly head. There is no point in trying to post anymore, which is his intent. Peacedog you are an affront to humanity by your presence, if you had any consideration for not wanting to offend people you would go blow your idiot brains out. You are just a little dick moron running acting like he has honor or integrity or intellect of any kind. When you have not the slightest clue what any of those things even are. Yeah, I know this will get me banned, doesn't matter. Can't post here anymore anyway. I do these fuckwads a favor by giving them stuff they can slam their lil dicks on. Another badge of honor for me.

[TheMissingLink]

vagabond,

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Kiam]

The pictures in "violation" to the CoC I didnt memorize verbatim are here, here, and here NSFW as usual. These rest were of burning trees, explosions and a baby looking out of a box.

How are those in violation? Is it because the goblin thing is naked? Because I see no goblin cock.

Im seriously interested.

[Kael]

The pictures in "violation" to the CoC I didnt memorize verbatim are here, here, and here NSFW as usual. These rest were of burning trees, explosions and a baby looking out of a box.

How are those in violation? Is it because the goblin thing is naked? Because I see no goblin cock.

Im seriously interested.

Somewhere someone is doing a google search on "goblin cock" and getting directed to this thread.

edit: nevermind, there are 74 hits on "goblin cock" in google including some very badly written fantasy porn. Whatever did we do before the internet?

[MHS]

The pictures in "violation" to the CoC I didnt memorize verbatim are here, here, and here NSFW as usual. These rest were of burning trees, explosions and a baby looking out of a box.

How are those in violation? Is it because the goblin thing is naked? Because I see no goblin cock.

Im seriously interested.

Actually, from my understanding it wasn't necessarily pictures that Crowley himself posted that led to the thread being in violation- it was pictures other members posted- in the spirit that the thread was taking.

[CeeKay]

This will immediately cause me and I promise you many others to go elsewhere.

It's a free country Vagabond. If you don't like it go elsewhere, unless you're an attention whore and feel the need to embiggen (:lol:) yourself by ripping on others.